What I’m trying to say is that I neve wanted to turn the screen black and say “hey the time’s up”, but incorporate those limitation into the gameplay (and the fatigue is only the starting point, but I talked a lot about this in the article itself in the ‘Long journeys’ and ‘Not so much grinding’ sections). I think strategies like this may give the time limit an actual “meaning” in-game, a reason to be.

If you are against limitations at all there’s no debate. I understand that limits are bad, and I myself wouldn’t like them in my games. So… I have no solution…

PS: you too read those comments in this blog, and then tell me there’s no need to do something about it… (it’s not a provocation :D)
http://eqdailygrind.blogspot.com/

That is the root of my problem with your proposal Ciro. I do not want a standard passed and enforced in the industry of game development that limits freedom of both the gamer and developer. The industry is already self-regulated via the ESRB, which works beautifully.

However, that is the ONLY regulation there should be in terms of content. Once an organization decides limitations for the rest of the populace, that is where I’m willing to stand up and fight. By admitting a game can have unhealthy effects on a person’s mind, you are providing ammunition to those opposed to the protection of video games’ content and development.

“You know there’s a serious problem with young people and MMORPG.” No, I do not know there is a serious problem with young people and MMORPGs. If there is a problem, it’s the responsibility of the player and the parent, not the developer.

I’m not being naive. I realize how much time people spend playing MMOs. I’ve tried every single one out there, but none kept my attention long enough.

I understand the grind-to-reward-cycle. Grinding for levels has been around since way before WoW or even graphical MMOs. Dragonrealms (text-based MUD), Chrono Trigger, Breath of Fire 2, Final Fantasy VII, etc. Those all provided the opportunity for the player to play for hours on end trying to build levels.

I believe we are at ends: you think there is a problem, and I do not. Not sure if there is a middle point of agreement, but I’m open to the concept =)

I never meant to implement a fixed growth in experience, whether you’re connected or not. I only made that progress bar to show that due to the longer pauses, the growth has to be accelerated to give the player the same number of rewards-per-day (where reward is a rare item, a level of XP, and so on).

Maybe you could unlock the fatigue system (removing it) if you’re over legal age? (this would require that the unlocked infatigable players have a slower growth). You know there’s a serious problem with young people and MMORPG. What’s your solution?

I def agree that level grinding is tedious and should not be part of any game. Why have players cycling through the same quests or objectives over and over again just to gain levels? Couldn’t a new path, a new object, or even a “side-quest” work better in a MMORPG? I quoted side quest because most of quests in games like WOW ARE side quests. However, in a universe so populated with characters and mystics like WOW, its unbelievable to not to be able to involve players in a minor character’s personal quest. It can be both intriguing, easy to develop, and, most importantly, break out of the “kill this, walk there” or “walk this path to talk to that person” pattern.

MMORPG can def be addictive and should be handled with care by the developers. I do not like the comments saying it is only an individual issue — that’s exactly what cigarette and firearm companies are saying too. True, the ultimate responsibility falls to the individuals; however, now we are seeing what our games are doing to some people, should we not try and address it?

Please, please realize that the following statement is *exactly* what completely ruins the fun of a game for me, and its presence in the game is completely detectable and obvious:

“That’s the final goal: the time you spend shall not be proportional to the success or growth of your character.”

Games which have this property are not games I will play. I want a reward for my time; I want greater reward if I put in more time than Joe, not the same reward. Otherwise the game boils down to a speed-governed treadmill. Advancement feels like it’s just a matter of how long you’ve been pouring money into monthly subscriptions, not how much effort you’ve put in. No — I’d much rather run as fast as I like on my treadmill, thank you.

I don’t know how to logically or pathologically refute this design goal any more than I already have; I just wanted to be absolutely clear that it’s this goal which I do not accept, for the reasons stated in my previous post. It’s particularly important that you understand the two situations that do not fit well into this design; unless you come up with a way to prevent people from playing games when they should be doing other things, while still allowing people to play extensively on vacation or a long weekend when they *needn’t* be doing other things, you’re not doing anybody any favors by trying to prescribe a time-limited playing schedule. And besides, if someone is determined not to get anything done, they can always play another game, or sink into the couch and watch TV, or just go to sleep.

As GameDevMich said, I think your article is well-presented and informed, but you are portraying a world where I won’t be able to find a game that I find lasting appeal in, essentially. And the reasons for introducing this are, in my opinion, not sound.

As a gamer, I ****really**** don’t like this direction. It’s the same kind of mindset as the folks who started doing DRM on music: “At first, they won’t like it, but if we make it universal so that you can’t feasibly buy music without DRM, people will accept it.” Well, you know how far that got — there has been consumer upheaval and riots in the street by DBD about DRM.

Basically, I’ll never accept games like this. Paternalistic game designers will get zero of my money (once discovered), and I will be vocal in letting the community know that I do not approve of their methodology.

I think you should focus your idea-generating energy on how to make games feel less like a treadmill. How can you take immersion to the next level? How can you take dynamic content to the next level? How can you speed up the development and deployment of truly novel content (not algorithmically-generated content) so that the game will have a continuous breath of creative energy for players to experience? I hate grinding as much as the next person, and if you can come up with design elements that will keep me interested (and playing for as long as I like, thanks) which do not involve grinding, I’ll enthusiastically laud your advancement of the theory of game design, and recommend that Bioware hire you.

@allquixotic:
If you had played for 12 years I assume you’re at least 23-25… I tried to tackle the issue for people who are far younger, like teens 14-15 years old who spend a LOT of time with MMORPGs. Of course they could and should decide for themselves, but since those games are so compelling, sometimes they simply can’t.
My ‘rules’ do not want to eradicate evil from games (if there’s any) but to be a starting point to help people not fall into the trap. For every person who does not play MMORPGs to an exent in which they hurt their social life, there’s 100 who do. Take a look at this…
http://eqdailygrind.blogspot.com/
EVERY post and every comment is the story of someone who (or that was related to a person who) wasted a part of his/her life.

About the economical matter, I never wanted to creat rules to make deceiving games, who are only good for one month. I wanted to make something (and for this I don’t mean the fatigue system) that could actually move players’ interest away from grinding, and so making the amount of time spent playing less important.

That’s the final goal: the time you spend shall not be proportional to the success or growth of your character.

@GameDevMich:
I do not see videogames as evil, I’m a big player myself. I only think that while MMORPGs of today are good, there’s a better way that can make them more… enjoyable by everyone (younger included) without risks.
People can choose what they want, sadly I know that the fatigue system is brutal for the player, I only think that if ALL the games had something like this, then maybe the player would accept it. It’s not a totalitarian restriction like.. no sex or drugs content, it’s only a set of rules to help the less strong.

My girlfriend pointed to me that in the bookselling world, the big majors from time to time make a meeting and put down some sort of big rule, and then the others have to follow… so they define a new standard and even if it may seem worst than before, it’s the standard now and everyone has to live with it. I hope games will create new safer standards. Maybe… a cap of 7 hours would sound more reasonable?

It’s escapism, not addiction. Ethics, in my opinion, do not come into play. People choose their games, just as they choose their TV shows, books, and music.

While I know this next statement is a stretch, it’s still worth stating if only for debating purposes. The claim that current MMORPG game design can have a negative effect on a person’s mind leads to a slippery slope of blanket claims.

If this design can cause addiction, what’s to say that other video games don’t cause violence, uncontrollable sexual urges, desire to use hard drugs and steal vehicles?

I like the article, and I think it was well presented. I just don’t see how current MMORPG designs are responsible for an individual’s lack of will power…

Just… no.

I have been a serious PC gamer, both single player and multi, for 12 years. Games which adopt this sort of model do not work for me, psychologically. They are *WAY* less satisfying than games whose rewards are linearly related to the amount of time you spend in them. You can’t kluge or hide or design around the fact that making people take a break is going to make the game less fun. By getting everyone to advance at the same pace (whether by automatic, fixed leveling a la EVE, or by faster rewards with a fatigue system, a la WoW), you are basically giving everyone the exact same, static path through the game with no variation, no option for distinguished play, no option to amaze your fellow guildmates by the fact that you gained 8 levels by playing through the night.

If you design a game like this, I will have only one recourse: play a game which doesn’t incorporate this kind of philosophy. No matter how much I like the game’s content, I would *QUICKLY* (within a month) bore of such a game. Yes, you may get my $49.99 for the box, and yes, you may get Month #1’s fee, if you’re clever; but I have a built-in, instinctive sensor for this kind of artifice and I find it an absolute dealbreaker.

But this design philosophy has logical flaws unrelated to my own desires and playing habits.

There is a distinction between the situation where a person HAS a real life or a social life which needs attention, and the situation where a person does NOT have this kind of real interaction and does not want it.

In the former case, I can agree that *the person* needs to make their own, willful choices to tend to their family, their job, proper sleep, etc. at the proper times. It is important to medically ensure the mental health of each person; an addiction where you are compelled to compromise your personal life for a game is a problem. But a game designed as you described will not help them live their lives better or attend to the people they need to attend to.

Due to the fact that game developers cannot tell what the player is doing (or SHOULD be doing) at any given time in their life, the 5 hour limitation still allows a hazardous scheduling of gameplay:

1. Joe Schmoe plays for 5 hours during his workday on his work computer. Perfectly allowed by the game developers. He then gets some work done for the remaining three hours of his workday, because his character is fatigued.
2. Four hours later, he’s finished work, gotten home and eaten dinner. Instead of spending time with his wife and kids, he gets back onto the game, playing into the evening, and then goes to bed. Again, perfectly legal under the 5 hour system.
3. Jane Doe is on a week’s vacation, and would like to spend some quality time with her guildmates in the game. They have been very kind to her, and she would like to help several people (who all log in at staggered hours of the day) advance, since she has nothing better to do. Jane is single and her house is neat and tidy, so there’s nothing she really needs to be doing. But the 5 hour time limit results in her saying things to her comrades such as, “Sorry, Phynxion, but I’ve just finished helping Wexia level from 6 to 14, and that took me about 4.5 hours… my character is going to faint soon, so I won’t be able to join the raid to tackle the Big Horrible Monster.” Then, because she has been playing all day during her vacation (as she loves to do), she has to log out and twiddle her thumbs (or do something even less stimulating, like watch TV) from 5pm to 9pm, while her guildmates wonder where she is, and try to scrounge up a group without her.

These are not contrived situations. In games with systems similar to the ones described in this article, I have had problems just like this. I personally would like to see developers take a renewed interest in putting play time decisions back in the hands of gamers, where such a decision belongs; because no designed or artificially contrived system will ever be able to properly regulate peoples’ entertainment time in a way that guarantees a happy, fulfilling, productive life.

Comment #1: You want a quote? Take that last sentence of mine.